Advanced Projectile Ammo

[Darakor]

As I have decided to take the next step on my path to uberness, I have decided to take a closer look at advance projectile ammo for my lovely Minmatar character. The main problem is, I cannot make head nor tails from the information I get on the market.

Faction ammo is prohibitively expensive, so that is a no go.

And T2 ammo is just confusing. There seem to be only 2 kinds, both with the same damage type and they just seem to give a bonus or malus to cap, firing speed, ship speed and other weird stuff.

As I have no clue what to do, I decided to ask the tried and true specialists here. Is it actually worth the bother to use T2 ammo? If yes, are there truly only 2 versions with the same damage or was I just unluckly when I tried looking around?

Any feedback is very welcome.

Dara

 

[Requiel]

For artillery you have Quake and Tremor ammo.

Quake is close range ammo that does a lot of damage, penalises ship speed and cap recharge and weapons range as well as a small penalty to tracking.

Tremor is long range ammo that gives a bonus to weapons range and a large penalty to tracking

Autocannon ammo is Barrage and Hail.

Barrage is long range ammo that gives a falloff bonus and tracking penalty.

Hail is close range ammo that gives a penalty to falloff, tracking, cap recharge and range but does a lot of damage.

 

[Darakor]

The big question is, does the additional damage make up for all the hassle with range bonus, tracking penalty, etc. ? Does it make sense to move on if I can? And does it make sense to use them all the time? Or only on enemies that have that particular weakness?

 

[Requiel]

No, in general T2 ammo isn't worth it with a few exceptions (Scorch, Spike and Void mostly).

 

[Chick]

Lies. Quake and Hail are awesomeness!

 

[Darakor]

Now... Who to believe?

 

[Requiel]

Now... Who to believe?

There is a clue in the names. Watch as I demonstrate:

C H I C K
W R O N G

R E Q U I E L
C O R R E C T

We've learned a valuable lesson here today.

 

[Chick]

Your spacebar is stuck?

IN general though:
All T2 ammo is situational. Some fits perfectly into the niche of "Do you want to be extra-awesome" and some into "Do you want your killmail to get laughed at". I fit into the first category, whilst Dr "Right-click select all Right Click fit too ship" Requiel fits into the second.

 

[Darakor]

D A R A K O R
I N V I N C I B�.. Erm, damn
I N G E N I U �. Erm, damn
S U P E R M A � Erm, damn

nevermind�.

 

[Requiel]

Your spacebar is stuck?

IN general though:
All T2 ammo is situational. Some fits perfectly into the niche of "Do you want to be extra-awesome" and some into "Do you want your killmail to get laughed at". I fit into the first category, whilst Dr "Right-click select all Right Click fit too ship" Requiel fits into the second.

Hey! My hull tanked rocket Brutix with target painters was an awesome idea! Screw the haters.

 

[Darakor]

So in what kinds of situations is T2 ammo useful? From Reqs comments, I expect using it while flying hull tanked rocket Brutix' with target painters isn't one of them.

 

[Shalam]

For PVP, You want faction ammo for close range and some T2 ammo (Barrage/Tremor) for range.

For PVE, Just use normal ammo, you could carry some Tremor if npc's are far away.

So in what kinds of situations is T2 ammo useful?

Rifter vs Tristan, Both standard close range/afterburner T2 Fits. All Level V skills.

Both have comparable tanks yet the Tristan has more damage. The Rifter is faster. Barrage ammo on the Rifter has an optimal of 1.5km and a falloff of 9km. Null from the Tristan reaches to 2.8+3.9km. Rifter pilot just needs to stay at 6-7km range and the Tristan can't really hit him. Barrage & speed is why Rifter is the best t1 frigate in the game.

 

[Requiel]

Just to explain something for the new guys in this thread. Weapon ranges (except missiles) are worked out as Optimal + 2*Falloff.

Out to your optimal range you'll be doing maximum damage (theoretically, damage is still modified by things like tracking vs transversal and sig radius but we'll ignore those for now). Outside your optimal range up to the first falloff you'll do reduced damage and outside of that range up to your second optimal you'll do practically none. Of course outside that second optimal you'll just miss all the time.

For example in Shalam's example, the Rifter will do full damage out to 1.5km, less damage up to 10.5km and very little damage from 10.5 to 19.5km.

Missile ranges are pretty straightforward, they are flight time multiplied by missile velocity so a Foxfire rocket goes at 2250m/s for 2 secs for a total range of 4.5km. This is modified by the skills Missile Bombardment (increases flight time up to 50%) and Missile Projection (makes missiles faster by up to 50%). If you had both of those skills at V your rocket would go at 3375m/s for 3 secs for a total of 10,125m.

 

[Requiel]

So, big guns do crap loads of damage, why am I not instapopping small frigates with my 425mm Railgun of Doom?

This is where transversals and sig radii come into play. Every turret (all guns but not missiles) has a tracking speed, this is given in radians. Don't worry if you don't understand the maths in that link, the basic takeaway is that the more radians there are on your gun, the faster it can pivot to track a moving target. Conversely, the more radians a target has, the harder it is for your gun to keep on it.

You can see the radial velocity of targets in the overview if you enable that column (from overview settings). The faster and closer something is, the harder it is to hit. If the transversal is faster than your gun's tracking speed then you can't hit it at all. If something is headed straight for you then it will have a radial velocity of 0 and you will laugh as you pod the clueless interceptor pilot with your sniping fleet battleship that shouldn't even have got close to hitting him.

The other consideration is sig radius. This has two effects in combat, it affects the locking time and it affects the damage taken from attacks. All attacks have a Signature Resolution which is compared to a targets signature radius.

Using the same example from before, a Rifter has a sig radius of 35m as standard which is pretty small. Any weapon with a sig resolution less than that will do full damage against it, anything with a sig resolution larger will do proportionately less. A Light Ion Blaster II (as might be fitted to the Tristan in that example) has a sig resolution of 40m which is pretty good vs the Rifter. A 425mm Railgun II has a sig radius of 400m which is going to do crap for damage vs the Rifter even assuming it's stationary so the guns can track it.

Missiles work differently as they don't have to track like turrets do. Instead they have Explosion Radius and Explosion Velocity. Explosion Radius is applied to the sig radius just like sig resolution is but Explosion Velocity is compared to the target speed (actual velocity not transversal), going faster than the Explosion Velocity will mean you take less damage. It's not a linear scale and you need to be going a lot faster than the Explosion Velocity before you take no damage at all.

The other thing with missiles is that their damage isn't instant, they have to fly to their targets and then do damage. It is possible with a fast ship to outrun missiles to get out of range if you see them coming.

 

[Nymawae]

Less wall of text here and more updating your blog Req.

>I�m a British game designer for an MMOFPS destined for release in mid 2009.

Bloody typical, get a Brit involved and it's 6 months late already and yes, I am a smart arse and everyone is a critic