Played 40k for the first time and ....
- Thread starter Gottaa
- Start date
Zed
Rogue Chimp
aye I had Army builder open as i typed but hit 1 anyway instead of 2. My math was correct (in my head at least) just not written down correct!!
But Zeus is right. 18 boys will get whittled down by 1 or 2 rounds of fire from the 10 man tac squad. But if you screen those 18 boyz with grots..... Then the boys should hit the marines relatively unscathed
But Zeus is right. 18 boys will get whittled down by 1 or 2 rounds of fire from the 10 man tac squad. But if you screen those 18 boyz with grots..... Then the boys should hit the marines relatively unscathed
Or charge at the marines with 30 boyz, and use bikes and there Exhaust Cloud to provide a 4+ cover I suppose with grots though the orks can stand back taking pot shots till the marines finally kill off the grots in there assault phase, ready for the orks to Waaagh!
Looking at Gretchin though does gain some cover, but they only really provide cover or hold objectives, and in a 500pt army, 19 gretchin + herder is 67pt and for 75pt I could get 3 bikes, or 6 lootas (once I read up on deffguns that might be my choice)
I suppose with grots though the orks can stand back taking pot shots till the marines finally kill off the grots in there assault phase, ready for the orks to Waaagh! Looking at Gretchin though does gain some cover, but they only really provide cover or hold objectives, and in a 500pt army, 19 gretchin + herder is 67pt and for 75pt I could get 3 bikes, or 6 lootas (once I read up on deffguns that might be my choice)
Zed
Rogue Chimp
Look at what your getting for your point against what they can actually achieve for you on the battle field.
The bikers have Assault 3 twin linked Dakkaguns. So you reroll the failed to hits. total of 9 dice - BS 2 (5+ to hit). Dakka gun has a range of 18inch S5 AP5. So marines still get a save. (potentially 18 dice to roll to hit)
Gretchin: 19 gretchin gives you 12inch range, S3 AP- Assault 1. So 19 dice in 12" @ BS3 or 4+ to hit. + Runt herder (5+ to hit)
So fairly even. You get better movement from the bikers but htey wont be useable as a throw away screen. They will die just as easy to Marine fire power as well and will actually be easier to drop with a tac squad than the grunts.
The gretchins give you an advancing cover save to the OrK boyz. they are there to die before hitting your enemy ranks when the Ork boyz then charge into them and decimate them because they are full strength or close to it.
The bikers have Assault 3 twin linked Dakkaguns. So you reroll the failed to hits. total of 9 dice - BS 2 (5+ to hit). Dakka gun has a range of 18inch S5 AP5. So marines still get a save. (potentially 18 dice to roll to hit)
Gretchin: 19 gretchin gives you 12inch range, S3 AP- Assault 1. So 19 dice in 12" @ BS3 or 4+ to hit. + Runt herder (5+ to hit)
So fairly even. You get better movement from the bikers but htey wont be useable as a throw away screen. They will die just as easy to Marine fire power as well and will actually be easier to drop with a tac squad than the grunts.
The gretchins give you an advancing cover save to the OrK boyz. they are there to die before hitting your enemy ranks when the Ork boyz then charge into them and decimate them because they are full strength or close to it.
Zeus
Full Member
"So fairly even. You get better movement from the bikers but htey wont be useable as a throw away screen. They will die just as easy to Marine fire power as well and will actually be easier to drop with a tac squad than the grunts."
not really. a) they are tougher. 5+s to wound rather than 4+. b) they have a 4+ cover save from the exhausts, if they take a proper pounding you can go to ground to make this a 3+. so you can park them in front of your big mob of boyz, and your opponents get to shoot at them or the boyz. if they shoot at them, they go to ground for 3+ cover. if not, your boyz have a 4+ cover save. either way,those 75 points have given a large chunk of your army a decent save.
not really. a) they are tougher. 5+s to wound rather than 4+. b) they have a 4+ cover save from the exhausts, if they take a proper pounding you can go to ground to make this a 3+. so you can park them in front of your big mob of boyz, and your opponents get to shoot at them or the boyz. if they shoot at them, they go to ground for 3+ cover. if not, your boyz have a 4+ cover save. either way,those 75 points have given a large chunk of your army a decent save.
Zed
Rogue Chimp
I guess either would be a good choice dependant on what you want.
although its hard to hit them there are less to kill so 4 wounds from a 10 man tac squad will kill the bikers if they fail their saves. It wouldn't do much than annoy the grunt herder as they advance.
Going to ground means the bikers cannot do anything until the end of their following turn. It means you have to hold back the boyz as well if your using the Bikes as mobile cover. So your giving up a full round of advancement to give the boyz the 4+ cover save. Either you move the boyz out from the screen and move them forwards into shooting or you stay still until the bikers get out from the dirt and move on.
Statistically advancing on a Tac squad the Bikers i doubt would do the job of getting the 20+ boyz into CC range intact. So id prefer at 500pts for the mobile advancing screen over the Bikes who's real advantage is hit and run, in and out softening up tactics (i think)
Given the idea is to get as many of the Ork boyz into hand to hand with the Tactical squad, i think the gretchins are better as a throw away unit. The bikers shouldnt be used for that purpose - it wastes them and actually doesnt help get the boyz to the squad. (not im my mind anyway)
Really though it should be upto to Gottaa to go with what he fancies. Personally id build a 1K - 1.5K army and then switch and swap for the 500pt games.
although its hard to hit them there are less to kill so 4 wounds from a 10 man tac squad will kill the bikers if they fail their saves. It wouldn't do much than annoy the grunt herder as they advance.
Going to ground means the bikers cannot do anything until the end of their following turn. It means you have to hold back the boyz as well if your using the Bikes as mobile cover. So your giving up a full round of advancement to give the boyz the 4+ cover save. Either you move the boyz out from the screen and move them forwards into shooting or you stay still until the bikers get out from the dirt and move on.
Statistically advancing on a Tac squad the Bikers i doubt would do the job of getting the 20+ boyz into CC range intact. So id prefer at 500pts for the mobile advancing screen over the Bikes who's real advantage is hit and run, in and out softening up tactics (i think)
Given the idea is to get as many of the Ork boyz into hand to hand with the Tactical squad, i think the gretchins are better as a throw away unit. The bikers shouldnt be used for that purpose - it wastes them and actually doesnt help get the boyz to the squad. (not im my mind anyway)
Really though it should be upto to Gottaa to go with what he fancies. Personally id build a 1K - 1.5K army and then switch and swap for the 500pt games.
Aiming for 500pt mainly because it's achievable with the kit I already have, and the games are shorter, which when starting out is a plus, specially when trying to still understand the rules some and the units.
My current plan was/is this:
http://davewright.co.uk/500pt_Sum'_Boyz_'n_frendz.pdf
My thoughts on it, are I could drop the bosses eavy armour and attach him to a squad where I remove the nobz bosspole, saving 10 points, then I could have potentially 2 grunt units of 10+herder to shield each force. Or I keep that the same hoping that 20 units is enough, and get 6 lootas for taking bigger stuff out ? Or go with something that can infiltrate, or get some jump troops who could shoot forward to engage and provide better cover than the gretchin because potentially more quickly I could tie up the enemy forces in hand to hand ?
Thing is I kind of fancy lots of things, perhaps my best idea is build a mob force, then something more vehicle based, then for giggles a shooty force. Which means I need to get a couple of the gretchin boxes now, if I start with a "green wave" idea.
And if I go against anything big, I have to hope the powerklaws can act like a tin opener
My current plan was/is this:
http://davewright.co.uk/500pt_Sum'_Boyz_'n_frendz.pdf
My thoughts on it, are I could drop the bosses eavy armour and attach him to a squad where I remove the nobz bosspole, saving 10 points, then I could have potentially 2 grunt units of 10+herder to shield each force. Or I keep that the same hoping that 20 units is enough, and get 6 lootas for taking bigger stuff out ? Or go with something that can infiltrate, or get some jump troops who could shoot forward to engage and provide better cover than the gretchin because potentially more quickly I could tie up the enemy forces in hand to hand ?
Thing is I kind of fancy lots of things, perhaps my best idea is build a mob force, then something more vehicle based, then for giggles a shooty force. Which means I need to get a couple of the gretchin boxes now, if I start with a "green wave" idea.
And if I go against anything big, I have to hope the powerklaws can act like a tin opener
A tweak:
http://davewright.co.uk/Green_Wave.pdf
Simple but should be fun to play, and if it doesn't work out I just swap out the gretchin for bikes or lootas
http://davewright.co.uk/Green_Wave.pdf
Simple but should be fun to play, and if it doesn't work out I just swap out the gretchin for bikes or lootas
Couple of checks on two rules.
Fallback, if I assault, and lose more wounds, I then fallback and the enemy get a chance to do a sweeping advance, i then win the leadership roll so don't get mullered then and there, but at that point if I'm less than half size in that unit there in constant fallback only able to shoot (it's right that they can shoot still ?), unless I have a unit with a bosspole to force a leadership roll ?
Bikes, I'm assuming they are not classed as vehicles as they do have a Leadership skill and if one is shot in a unit of three like normal units they do still need to roll for leadership ? (bikes are under the vehicle section but I'm not 100% sure how they react to getting shot at)
General question do you you a HQ with another unit, or keep it seperate ? I'm wondering if I'm best having my warboss with a unit of boyz or if I should keep him apart so if I do fail an assault he couldn't be taken out with one dice roll with a sweeping advance
Fallback, if I assault, and lose more wounds, I then fallback and the enemy get a chance to do a sweeping advance, i then win the leadership roll so don't get mullered then and there, but at that point if I'm less than half size in that unit there in constant fallback only able to shoot (it's right that they can shoot still ?), unless I have a unit with a bosspole to force a leadership roll ?
Bikes, I'm assuming they are not classed as vehicles as they do have a Leadership skill and if one is shot in a unit of three like normal units they do still need to roll for leadership ? (bikes are under the vehicle section but I'm not 100% sure how they react to getting shot at)
General question do you you a HQ with another unit, or keep it seperate ? I'm wondering if I'm best having my warboss with a unit of boyz or if I should keep him apart so if I do fail an assault he couldn't be taken out with one dice roll with a sweeping advance
Zed
Rogue Chimp
Yup bikes will take leadership tests when loosing troops. They fallback on 3d6 as well due to their speed.
Falling back: once you drop below 50% then unless you have something around (boss pole or synapse for Nids) then you will continue to fall back until you leave the table. You can as stated continue to shoot though. (interesting thought here: 40K has no concept of facing per'se so you could still shoot troops in range behind you)
And i believe you are correct with your HQ if it joins a unit. It will die in a sweeping advance though Zeus might better clarify this as ive not tinkered much with independent characters yet.
Falling back: once you drop below 50% then unless you have something around (boss pole or synapse for Nids) then you will continue to fall back until you leave the table. You can as stated continue to shoot though. (interesting thought here: 40K has no concept of facing per'se so you could still shoot troops in range behind you
)And i believe you are correct with your HQ if it joins a unit. It will die in a sweeping advance though Zeus might better clarify this as ive not tinkered much with independent characters yet.
Zeus
Full Member
it really does
right.
a few things then.
firstly, losign a combat. (i'll cover general things first, and then ork specifics after)
you lose a combat if you take more unsaved wounds than an enemy. even if you now outnumber them 15 to 1 having started at 20 to 5. even if they lost 5 times as many points as you. hell, even if you lose 3 wounds and didnt lose a model, and you slaughtered 2 of them.
if you draw (ie. same wounds taken by both sides), neither side has lost.
once you've lost a combat, you take a leadership test. this is on the highest leadership present in the unit. for marines, this is normally the sargeant (ld 9 compared to a basic marines 8) or commander (ld 10). There are certain abilities that allow you to use your commanders leadership even if he is not present in the unit - such as Marine's Rites of Battle, or imperial guard radios.
This leadership is then modified by the amount you lost by. so if i'm a marine player, and my squad with sargeant (9 ld) has just lost a combat by 3 wounds, i'll be on 6.
You then have to roll your leadership or under on 2d6 to not break.
there are other things that can modify leadership (such as Lemartes' Death Mask giving a -1 ld to all enemies in 6 inches) or make it unmodifiable (Stubborn).
If you pass then thats fine - you've taken losses, but you stand and fight.
If you fail (ie. roll higher than your modified leadership) you've broken. At this point, both players roll a dice and add their initiative. if the broken unit gets higher than the pursuer, they escape. if not, they are run down and destroyed automatically. this is an excellent way of taking out necrons, since they dont get to roll wbb on it
If you have 2 units fighting in the same combat, and one breaks but the other does not, the enemy cannot run them down as they are already engaged, so you automatically get away without doing the i+d6 test.
Orks are slightly different. There is an additional rule called 'Fearless' - orks get this when in a mob of more than 10 models. Fearless means they cannot be broken. However, it has downsides too. At the point where you would normally be looking at leaderships, you instead just work out the modifier. if you lost the combat by 3 wounds, then you take another 3 wounds. these can be saved against as normal.
Once you are below 11 models, you'll be testing against leadership. i'm not sure what orks leaderships are these days, it used to be about 5 for a boy, 6 for a nob, and 8 for a warboss, probably all a bit higher now. so if you have taken 6 wounds, and inflicted 3 on your enemy, you'll be on -3. if you've just got a nob (ie. not a warboss), you'll therefore be needing to roll 3 or less on 2d6. It should be noted that a double-1 will ALWAYS pass, even if your at -20. The bosspole allows you to inflict a wound on your own unit, and gain a reroll.
If you still fail (and realistically, once orks are taking leadership tests, they tend to fail them), you fall back. so roll d6 and add initiative to see if you get away. if you get away, roll 2d6 (or 3d6 for bikes/jump troops) for how far you run towards your own table edge. your opponent then rolls a d6 for how far they can consolidate. note that even if they could reach you with this d6, *they are not allowed to*.
If you do not beat them on the initiative+d6 roll, then the squad is wiped out. this includes any independant characters. so yes its a risk, but otoh your less likely to lose the combat with an IC present (because they tend to be vicious bastards), and if you do your less likely to break (because of the higher leadership value).
once you are broken, you will run 2d6 (or 3d6) inches a turn towards your table edge. you can attempt to rally if you are at 50% models or above. if not, your just running. you also can't rally if theres an enemy unit within 6".
you can shoot as you run, so long as people are within range (and obviously you cant fire stuff like heavy weapons as your moving).
If you rally, you get to move 3" that turn, and can shoot - but again, you count as moving. i think they can charge, but its unlikely you'll be close enough to in most cases.
There are rules for if you are charged while fleeing, but honestly it almost never happens, and the rules are different between 40k and fantasy, so i keep getting them mixed up.
Marines are slightly different again, due to their 'And They Shall Know No Fear' rule.
This means several things - firstly, that if they break in close combat, and you catch them on the initiative roll, they simply take damage as though they were fearless, rather than being wiped out.
Secondly, if they rally after fleeing, they move their 3", and can then act normally - so they can move another 6", or shoot at full range.
Thirdly, (i think) they can rally even if they are below 50%.
Wow. wrote more than i meant to. oh well. hopefully cleared some stuff up.
right.
a few things then.
firstly, losign a combat. (i'll cover general things first, and then ork specifics after)
you lose a combat if you take more unsaved wounds than an enemy. even if you now outnumber them 15 to 1 having started at 20 to 5. even if they lost 5 times as many points as you. hell, even if you lose 3 wounds and didnt lose a model, and you slaughtered 2 of them
.if you draw (ie. same wounds taken by both sides), neither side has lost.
once you've lost a combat, you take a leadership test. this is on the highest leadership present in the unit. for marines, this is normally the sargeant (ld 9 compared to a basic marines 8) or commander (ld 10). There are certain abilities that allow you to use your commanders leadership even if he is not present in the unit - such as Marine's Rites of Battle, or imperial guard radios.
This leadership is then modified by the amount you lost by. so if i'm a marine player, and my squad with sargeant (9 ld) has just lost a combat by 3 wounds, i'll be on 6.
You then have to roll your leadership or under on 2d6 to not break.
there are other things that can modify leadership (such as Lemartes' Death Mask giving a -1 ld to all enemies in 6 inches) or make it unmodifiable (Stubborn).
If you pass then thats fine - you've taken losses, but you stand and fight.
If you fail (ie. roll higher than your modified leadership) you've broken. At this point, both players roll a dice and add their initiative. if the broken unit gets higher than the pursuer, they escape. if not, they are run down and destroyed automatically. this is an excellent way of taking out necrons, since they dont get to roll wbb on it
If you have 2 units fighting in the same combat, and one breaks but the other does not, the enemy cannot run them down as they are already engaged, so you automatically get away without doing the i+d6 test.
Orks are slightly different. There is an additional rule called 'Fearless' - orks get this when in a mob of more than 10 models. Fearless means they cannot be broken. However, it has downsides too. At the point where you would normally be looking at leaderships, you instead just work out the modifier. if you lost the combat by 3 wounds, then you take another 3 wounds. these can be saved against as normal.
Once you are below 11 models, you'll be testing against leadership. i'm not sure what orks leaderships are these days, it used to be about 5 for a boy, 6 for a nob, and 8 for a warboss, probably all a bit higher now. so if you have taken 6 wounds, and inflicted 3 on your enemy, you'll be on -3. if you've just got a nob (ie. not a warboss), you'll therefore be needing to roll 3 or less on 2d6. It should be noted that a double-1 will ALWAYS pass, even if your at -20. The bosspole allows you to inflict a wound on your own unit, and gain a reroll.
If you still fail (and realistically, once orks are taking leadership tests, they tend to fail them), you fall back. so roll d6 and add initiative to see if you get away. if you get away, roll 2d6 (or 3d6 for bikes/jump troops) for how far you run towards your own table edge. your opponent then rolls a d6 for how far they can consolidate. note that even if they could reach you with this d6, *they are not allowed to*.
If you do not beat them on the initiative+d6 roll, then the squad is wiped out. this includes any independant characters. so yes its a risk, but otoh your less likely to lose the combat with an IC present (because they tend to be vicious bastards), and if you do your less likely to break (because of the higher leadership value).
once you are broken, you will run 2d6 (or 3d6) inches a turn towards your table edge. you can attempt to rally if you are at 50% models or above. if not, your just running. you also can't rally if theres an enemy unit within 6".
you can shoot as you run, so long as people are within range (and obviously you cant fire stuff like heavy weapons as your moving).
If you rally, you get to move 3" that turn, and can shoot - but again, you count as moving. i think they can charge, but its unlikely you'll be close enough to in most cases.
There are rules for if you are charged while fleeing, but honestly it almost never happens, and the rules are different between 40k and fantasy, so i keep getting them mixed up.
Marines are slightly different again, due to their 'And They Shall Know No Fear' rule.
This means several things - firstly, that if they break in close combat, and you catch them on the initiative roll, they simply take damage as though they were fearless, rather than being wiped out.
Secondly, if they rally after fleeing, they move their 3", and can then act normally - so they can move another 6", or shoot at full range.
Thirdly, (i think) they can rally even if they are below 50%.
Wow. wrote more than i meant to. oh well. hopefully cleared some stuff up.
Zeus
Full Member
oh, there were other questions.
Yes, bike act like normal squads for being shot. if you lose 1 of 3, you have to roll leadership.
Personally, i tend to keep my characters in squads. Some people dont, but their tend to be so many heavy weapons about that its not worth risk of running about on their own. obviously theres times when you leave the squad - sometimes i'll want to charge a different unit for example, or land dante behind kharn and one-shot-kill the bastard. again. (i may have got a bit of a rep for doing this, but it was totally worth it... ) but 90% of the time, your better off in a unit.
Yes, bike act like normal squads for being shot. if you lose 1 of 3, you have to roll leadership.
Personally, i tend to keep my characters in squads. Some people dont, but their tend to be so many heavy weapons about that its not worth risk of running about on their own
. obviously theres times when you leave the squad - sometimes i'll want to charge a different unit for example, or land dante behind kharn and one-shot-kill the bastard. again. (i may have got a bit of a rep for doing this, but it was totally worth it... ) but 90% of the time, your better off in a unit.