Well done Benitez

[Anubis]

That's another fine mess you've got us into. This is not the first time he's thrown the towel in before the end of a game, and I for one will not be disappointed if we lose on Wednesday night as I expect we will. Needless to say the Evertonians love him and I have heard that there is a campaign going round Old Trafford to keep him in his job (this did happen when that other great oaf, Graeme Souness, was trying to manage the club).

It's a laugh though

 

[Ky]

ROFLpool.

Even Flight must be thinking that Benitez has lost the plot. He's doing a good impression of Peter Griffin (<--) running a football team.

 

[Flight]

Wrong time to be judging Benitez as a manager. Less than zero net spend over the last two years. A third of his transfer budget this summer taken off him. Seven of the first team out with flu/injuries.

The whole of our back four at the weekend cost us �2.5million.

Net spend of nothing in the summer and our squad now is the same as it was last term. Possibly the strongest first eleven in the Prem, but we can't cope with multiple injuries.

If you accept the tabloid rubbish the papers spew out he's spent more than anyone, bought more players than anyone and has a bigger squad than anyone, but that's rubbish. We have the fifth most expensive squad in the Prem, yet are expected to do well in everything (and that's before you take into account that the other top clubs have spent more in wages than us to the tune of more than rafas total spend).



Bottom line with LFC we are in a decline under Gillett and Hicks and nothing can prevent it until the ownership changes, which I don't think is likely. Every single penny the club earns is going out on interest payments, let alone paying the debt off.

Rafa wanted to sell more players to raise funds at the end of the transfer window (we had offers on the table for Voronin, �3mill, and for Babel) but he believed he wouldn't get that money back either. Reina has three years left on his contract and Rafa wants to tie him up to a longer term deal before the club goes even more down the shitter and the Americans are talking about forcing a Babel sale through to pay for that.



I honestly expect nothing but our demise under Statler and Waldorf and I've been saying so for 18 months - the numbers simply don't add up. The Mancs will be in as bad a situation in 2-3 years time when their soft medium term credit runs out and the punitive terms of their loan interest situation comes up for payment.



The thing is this; Statler and Waldorf aren't in the least bit interested in winning anything or having the best team. The single thing they are interested in is retaining ownership of the club while putting in as little funds as possible to achieve that. That's the nature of leveraged buy outs. The profits from the company pay for their buying us. After that there is nothing left in the kitty.

 

[Treebeard]

I think Benitez can be the only one to blame for the current state of the team.

He has brought in an awful lot of players and the simple fact is, looking at the current squad, that pretty much all of them are average and are not Liverpool players at all.

There is no way that a club like Liverpool's first 11 should suffer so much from losing just one or two players through injury. Yes its been a bit more than one or two recently but Arsenal have been getting by with at least half a dozen injuries to key players for 4 seasons now.

Looking at the figures as well a couple of Liverpool sites have his spend at 210mil and his sales at 140mil (including the 30 for Alonso). I can't believe the excuse is being used that he hasn't had the money. Looking at official figures he has brought in 70+ players in the last 5 seasons!!! Thats astonishing. Ok half of those were on a free but even so, if he can't get it right now with that amount coming in he is never going to.

I respect him as a manager but he has been awful in the transfer market and this has been Liverpool's undoing.

 

[Flight]

Looking at the figures as well a couple of Liverpool sites have his spend at 210mil and his sales at 140mil (including the 30 for Alonso). I can't believe the excuse is being used that he hasn't had the money. Looking at official figures he has brought in 70+ players in the last 5 seasons!!! Thats astonishing. Ok half of those were on a free but even so, if he can't get it right now with that amount coming in he is never going to.

The 70+ players is typical tabloid bollocks. Not only were half of them free but half of them were youth team and plenty more were for the reserves.

Only two players from 5 years ago are still here - and that's at all levels. He has had to wheel and deal like nobodies business to get any kind of squad together.

So, we've spent �70mill a year over 6 summers, �11M per summer. That's �3mill a year LESS than Sunderland or Villa. Yet the squad he inherited was shite, overpaid and on long term contracts and we are expected to compete in all competitions and have made the CL final twice.


Thirty of those were free signings. 49 of the 66 players he has bought are still at the club. Only 18 of those are first team players, the rest are youth. He has lost �10mill on buying players and selling at a loss (including Keane) and made much more than that on buying players and selling at a profit. Not quite the same picture the press paints, is it ?





LFC is a sinking ship under the Yanks. It will get worse, not better. That's down to the Americans, not Rafa. If Rafa goes it will just hasten the inevitable.

 

[Treebeard]

Those figures are just from a Liverpool website mate.

Here are the players who cost money:

Fernando Torres July 2007 20,200,000 Atletico Madrid
Alberto Aquilani August 2009 20,000,000 AS Roma
Robbie Keane July 28 2008 19,000,000 Tottenham Hotspur
Glen Johnson 22 June 2009 17,500,000 Portsmouth
Ryan Babel July 2007 11,500,000 Ajax
Xabi Alonso August 20th 2004 10,750,000 Real Sociedad
Dirk Kuyt August 18 2006 9,000,000 Feyenoord
Albert Riera September 1 2008 8,000,000 Espanyol
Andrea Dossena July 2008 8,000,000 Udinese
Peter Crouch July 20th 2005 7,000,000 Southampton
Lucas Leiva 11 May 2007 6,750,000 Gremio
Jermaine Pennant July 26 2006 6,700,000 Birmingham City
Martin Skrtel 11 January 2008 6,500,000 Zenit St Petersburg
Craig Bellamy July 1st 2006 6,000,000 Blackburn Rovers
Luis Garcia August 20th 2004 6,000,000 Barcelona
Jose Reina July 4th 2005 6,000,000 Villareal
Dan Agger January 2006 5,800,000 Brondby
Mohammed Sissoko July 2005 5,600,000 Valencia
Fernando Morientes January 2005 5,500,000 Real Madrid
Yossi Benayoun July 2007 5,000,000 West Ham United
Diego Cavalieri July 2008 4,000,000 Palmeiras
Alvaro Arbeloa January 31 2007 2,600,000 Deportivo La Coruna
Sebastian Leto July 2007 2,500,000 Lanus
Jose Miguel Gonzalez Rey (Josemi) July 2004 2,000,000 CD Malaga
Gabriel Paletta July 1st 2006 2,000,000 Banfield
David Ngog July 24 2008 1,500,000 Paris St Germain
Sotirios Kyrgiakos 21 August 2009 1,500,000 AEK Athens
Mark Gonzalez July 4th 2005 1,500,000 Albacete
Scott Carson January 21st 2005 750,000 Leeds United
Mikel San Jose July 2007 270,000 Athletic Bilbao
David Martin January 2006 250,000 MK Dons
Antonio Barragan July 4th 2005 240,000 Sevilla
Besian Idrizaj August 2005 190,000 Linzer ASK
Jack Hobbs August 2005 150,000 Lincoln City
Alex Cooper January 2008 100,000 Ross County
Alexander Kacaniklic June 2007 75,000 Helsingborgs

There is a list as long as that that were free transfers that doesn't include trainees.

I think most would agree that he has had the chance to build a good squad but a lot of his purchases have been sub-standard. So he hasn't had the money of Chelsea but then who has? I think he is a good, maybe even a great manager, but the transfer market is by far his weakest area and looking at the current squad proves that.

You can't also just discount the other 140mil. That money has been pumped back into the squad so while he has only spent a net of 11mil per season, he has had use of 210mil to build his squad.

 

[Flight]

You can't also just discount the other 140mil. That money has been pumped back into the squad so while he has only spent a net of 11mil per season, he has had use of 210mil to build his squad.

I don't dispute the figures, but your wrong about �210mill to build his squad.

If you buy a player for �10mill and sells him for �10mill you can't include that in the worth of the squad or his spend. Gross spend is flat out misleading.


His poor purchases aren't any worse than any manager. More tabloid nonsense. They'll tell you Lucas is shite and the sheep amongst fans and supporters will agree, but ignore the fact he has the second highest tackle attempt and success rate in the Prem and as pass completion rate averaging over 90% and 97% against the Mancs last week (38/39 including his assist). Not bad for �5-�6mill. Or Brazils left back on a free and Argentinas left back for �1mill.

I'll give you Babel, Keane and Dossena (though Keane was down to Parry), but then that's the cost of Berbatov.

 

[Treebeard]

Do you not think that he should take responsibility for a squad that seems to be completely lacking in any depth though and it is all about the money?

Or is the squad good enough but going through a bad patch?

 

[Agravaine]

Regardless of anything else, he does seem to buy a lot of shite players.

Every manager makes mistakes or signs players who don't work out but Benitez seems to have turned it into an art form.

The one inspired buy was Nando. I doubted he'd score many goals even if he adapted to English football but the guy is awesome and an absolute bargain at that price.

Even had Keane stayed, he wasn't worth �19m and �17.5m for Johnson?!?! I know English players have inflated prices but that's ridiculous.

If they don't give Benitez more money, he's fucked. If they do, he'll waste enough of it that it won't matter if he gets one or two good players.

Do Hooferpool have a decent yoof system to fall back on? We ripped their yoof team to pieces in the FA Cup last year and their reserves didn't exactly set the world alight in the Carling Cup last week.

 

[Ky]

I don't think you can argue his transfer market dealings have been diabolical. To blame it all on Gillet and Hicks is short-sighted because the fact is, the squad lacks depth and the 1st XI, Gerrard and Torres aside, lacks pace and width of a significant quality.

That is down to the manager. He shouldn't have let Alonso go in the summer and he should have strengthened central midfield with someone other than an injury prone Italian. Lucas is awful, so is Babel and god knows what has happened to Mascheranos form this season.

You cannot put all that at the feet of the owners I'm afraid. Yes, its a bit of a circus at the top but even so, he has got himself into a position of an overall poor squad but a decent 1st XI with shortcomings in terms of width. I haven't seen many youngsters come through the ranks in the last 5 years either.

I'm not sure whether they should get rid of him but I'm equally not sure they should pesevere with him like Arsenal have with Wenger, simply because of his poor transfer market dealings.

 

[Treebeard]

Thats what amazed me about the comments at the start of the season regarding Arsenal's lack of depth. Only one player from that team that beat 'Pool started against Spurs on Saturday.

 

[Flight]

Regardless of anything else, he does seem to buy a lot of shite players.

Honest question, not being sarcastic. Do you know that and can name them or is that what you've read ?

I don't think you can argue his transfer market dealings have been diabolical.

A net spend of �11mill a summer. �3mill less a year than Sunderland or Villa.

�15-�40mill a year less in wages than other top teams.


How have his transfer dealings been diabolical ?

 

[Treebeard]

A quick scan of that list and I would highlight.

Ngog
Riera
Dossenna
Babel
Leiva
Crouch
Pennant
Bellamy
Sossoko
Keane
+ others.

I'm not saying these players are crap. The problem is that he hasn't been able to get out of them what they are probably capable of or for whatever reason they just haven't performed. Many are also not the calibre of player you expect to see at Liverpool. Whatever way you look at it, Rafa has to be responsible for the performance of the players he has.

 

[Agravaine]

This makes for an interesting read:

http://www.football365.com/john_nicholson/0,17033,8746_5669611,00.html

It's true that Benitez has been more successful over the past 5 seasons but Wenger has transformed Arsenal from a team of cloggers into one of the most attractive sides in the world, with one of the best stadiums and he's won titles doing it.

Wenger IS Arsenal whilst Benitez is just the latest in a long line of Liverpool managers trying to recreate the glory days of the 70's and 80's.

 

[Treebeard]

Some strange comments in there. Outside of die-hard Arsenal fans I haven't heard the word transition much. Most of the press and pundits on TV have predicted that its been over for us pretty much every summer for 4 years.

Its a strange comparison as well. Arsene has built up a huge amount of credit by winning lots of everything in his first 6 years while building a new ground and securing the financial future of the club.

I've no doubt that the Liverpool job is a tough one, and the expectation is too high after the 70's and 80's, but ultimately the team and the performance of that team is down to the manager.

 

[Agravaine]

Bastard web site ate my post.

Lucas might have good stats but he always seems dire when I see him play.

Maybe it's just my perception, but Keane, Babel, Crouch, Pennant, Bellamy and Ngog all rate as shite or OK at best, for me. There's more but Benitez seems to accumulate an endless procession of forgettable foreigners so, every time I see them, I'm never sure who is who but they never seem that good.

OK, say I'm wrong and Benitez hasn't signed a complete pile of wank. Look back over his signings and, aside from Nando, Benayoun, Alonso and Reina, who has Benitez signed that you rate as very good or better?

I'm not talking players who are decent, OK or good. I'm talking players who are very good or just plain awesome and really deserve to wear the shirt.

If I had to do the same for Wenger's signings, I'd have a long list but I just can't think of many Liverpool players who are as good.

 

[Ky]

1st Team - Dodgy Players IMO

Voronin
Kyrgiakos
Babel (11.5M.....)
Lucas
Insua
Ngog
Degen
Plessis
El Zhar
Dossena
Riera
Cavalieri

Thats players I don't think have or will cut the grade out of the current squad. Lets go back to players he has bought previously:

Keane
Bellamy
Crouch
Pennant
Sissoko
Morientes (lets not forget him)
Arbeloa (bought in 07, gone to Madrid)
Carson
Paletta
Luis Garcia

Thats 22 players and 12 out of the current 1st team squad.

Thats why I think he is diabolical in the transfer market and he doesn't have much coming through from the youth squad or, if he does, he doesn't promote them. I still don't know why he sold Stephen Warnock and its clear he couldn't make the most of Keane, Crouch, Pennant, Moritentes or Luis Garcia when he had them. These guys (Pennant aside) were proven class, and in the case of Keane and Crouch, proven PL class as well. Liverpools problem is that without Gerrard and Benayoun aside, they have no real flair at all to feed Torres. Kuyt on the right of midfield says it all. Yes, he has a good work rate but he simply isn't a great right midfielder.

/shrug

He is a good tactician for the European game but Liverpool will NEVER wil the league under him. He is as stubborn as an Ox and refuses to look at himself for failure, he just blames it on something else. Sure, do that once or twice but now its becoming a running joke.

 

[Flight]

1st Team - Dodgy Players IMO

Voronin
Kyrgiakos
Babel (11.5M.....)
Lucas
Insua
Ngog
Degen
Plessis
El Zhar
Dossena
Riera
Cavalieri

Thats players I don't think have or will cut the grade out of the current squad. Lets go back to players he has bought previously:

Half of those were/are free signings/youth team. Riera plays left wing for Spain, Lucas is 21 in the Brazil squad and far better than his rep but still only cost �5mill, Insua cost �1mill is also 21 and is Argentinas left back, El Zhar and Plessis were youth players who cost fuck all. Like I said I'll give you Babel and Dossena.

The other players you listed were bought out of necessity by very limited transfer budgets and we made money on them.

Two dud signings in 6 summers (Keane being another, but that had more to do with Parry).



At the end of the day, we disagree about he manager; that's fair enough, but I believe he has worked wonders with a ridiculously low budget and a shite, overpaid squad on long term contracts that he inherited.


But far more important than the manager is the ownership situation. At best we are on a fast decline and at worst it's quite possible we could do a Leeds.

 

[Anubis]

Crikey what a can of worms...

I think everyone has made good points here, I would highlight the following, in my opinion:
1. The owners are the biggest problem at the club. No interest in football and they do not care a jot for the club. They take a lot of the revenues for their pockets -eg 30 million for Alonso, which the press never mention. Purzlow seems to be the right person as chief exec, but with these fools things will only get worse.
2. The spending is bad, but as is the habit of the press these days, it is overhyped. They never seem to mention the revenues.
3. Benitez. He inherited a lamentable squad, and although he has improved it, his lack of forward planning over the last 3 or so years is showing. His excuses are lame, he's turned the neutrals against us and he has more excuses than [insert here] since he never takes the blame for anything. His lack of funds is no excuse whatsoever. Why can his reserves/squad not compete with Arsenal's? Because Arsenal have invested in youth and their manager does not need to spend and does not moan about it. I want him out, but to be honest is there a suitable alternative out there? I am not sure.
4. Blind faith in certain players who are not fit to wear the shirt. Houllier had the same problem, and the current events mirror those in his final months.
5. A severe lack of tactical nouse and motivational skills on the part of the manager for domestic games. Inability to change tactics during a domestic match.
6. The players. Some are over rated, some can't be bothered and some are just poor.
7. Losing some players - why did he loan Kriztian Nemeth out to Athens? He should be the no 3 striker at least.

Top buys: Torres, Alonso (he left because Rafa treated him like dirt over the Barry transfer, but did his best last season.)
Above average buys: Skrtel, Luis Garcia, Reina (a bit short of a top buy but not much), Agger (fully fit would be world class), Benayoun (underrated and a very useful player), Insua (I like this chap and think he will make it)
Average buys: Johnson (good player but vastly over priced), Kuyt (100% tryer, but could be replaced easily. Probably better than "average"), Riera (erratic and I don't particularly rate him), Crouch (a good player but followed Heskey in so much as tactics changed to hoofing it to him all the time), Bellamy, Arbeloa (under rated, not bad to be fair), Sissoko (had his good points but too many shortcomings), Aurelio (free, yes but not the best. Injury prone and inconsistent)
Bad buys: Keane (unlucky I feel, not played right), Dossena (who?), Morientes (just did not work out), Lucas (I can't see why the manager has blind faith in this chap), Cavalieri (not needed), Leto (poor quality), Josemi (not great), Paletta (plain bad), Babel (waster, makes no effort), Pennant (like Babel but worse), Gonzalez (not sure why he did not work out, I don't think was given a chance), Plessis (poor quality), el Zhar (not good enough), Degen (injury prone), Voronin (free, a good player but not in the PL(

Some were free, but some of these were bad signings even so.
Aquilani - give him a chance
Ngog - raw but knows where the goal is. Worth having as 4th striker and we'll know more next season.
Kyrgiakos - panic buy
Carson - panic buy

That's all ffffolks (for now)

 

[Fletcher03]

this is going to be the worst season for us in a long time we need to win on wednesday or thats it for europe, if benitez isnt careful and once our fans start on him rather than supporting the team he will be out the door! i always say ive got faith in him but so far not very strong.